Speaker 1: Welcome,
Speaker 1: LinkedIn Live humans.
Speaker 1: This is our, part two of our doubleheader
Speaker 1: experiment
Speaker 1: on recording the CTOX podcast
Speaker 1: live
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn Live. Hi, Lior.
Speaker 2: Hi, Marissa.
Speaker 1: I'm excited.
Speaker 1: Shall I get started? Yes, please.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the CTOX podcast.
Speaker 1: Your clients don't pay you to be neutral.
Speaker 1: They pay you to see clearly and express your unique perspective,
Speaker 1: and seeing clearly requires both bias and
Speaker 1: curiosity.
Speaker 1: Today, we're unpacking one of the most important but least understood parts of being a fractional leader
Speaker 1: or advisor, which is how do you trust your own judgment without letting your biases
Speaker 1: blind you. By the end of this episode, you'll know how to use your bias as a strength
Speaker 1: and how curiosity
Speaker 1: keeps that strength from becoming a liability.
Speaker 1: Now I I've gotta frame this up, Lior.
Speaker 1: This episode came about because I was asking you a viewer question
Speaker 1: about how you minimize your bias when you're working with your clients.
Speaker 1: And you said something that was just a typical Lior mic drop moment. I'd love if you could replay that for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You asked me,
Speaker 2: how do I minimize your bias? Or he asked me, how do I minimize your bias? And I said, clients are buying my bias.
Speaker 2: That's that's all I do.
Speaker 2: That's why they're paying me money. Your bias is really just your accumulated judgment.
Speaker 2: It's your greatest
Speaker 2: asset.
Speaker 2: As a fractional CTO, if you're an
Speaker 2: adviser or you're embedded already in the company, whatever it is, they're basically saying, we have this technology question.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's servers, maybe it's product, maybe it's security, doesn't matter what it is, but they don't have the tools or the experience to know the answer.
Speaker 2: So they'll look into you. Even if they go to ChargeGPT,
Speaker 2: ChargeGPT doesn't come with the experience, it might come with the
Speaker 2: information.
Speaker 2: So they wanna tune into what's your intuition from all of your experience, which is really what bias is.
Speaker 1: So funny.
Speaker 1: How does pattern recognition help you move faster and deliver higher value insights when you're working with clients?
Speaker 2: So one of the one of the things we talk about in Accelerator is the value of being focused on a niche, for example.
Speaker 2: And there's
Speaker 2: mechanical
Speaker 2: advantages of just the efficiency you get on marketing, efficiency you get on sales, efficiency you get on reputation,
Speaker 2: but also how you actually run through the week. Because if you have a meeting at 10AM with a manufacturer and a 2PM with an advertising agency,
Speaker 2: you're solving very, very different problems.
Speaker 2: But if you're within the same niche, you're generally gonna solve
Speaker 2: the same problems in different continuance because some companies are gonna be a little bit behind, some companies gonna be a little bit ahead. But the problem space is gonna be fairly familiar,
Speaker 2: And being able to kinda look at whatever problem or opportunity organization has
Speaker 2: and look at your history either with your current clients or your past clients, whatever that is, and saying, oh, I've seen this before. So you can just make a decision right now. You don't need for they don't need to wait a week. You can give them instant value
Speaker 2: because you already had spent the million dollars worth of that mistake or the six months or whatever that is. So being able to tap into
Speaker 2: the variety of your experience and look at the different patterns
Speaker 2: of what's coming up
Speaker 2: allows you to just give them the answer straight. The faster
Speaker 2: you give them the answers, the more credible you are, the more value you're giving. That's also something we talk about in the accelerator when people are like, oh, I wanna throttle.
Speaker 2: Right? I wanna, I don't wanna give them all the answers in week one. I'm like, no. No. No. Give them in week one. Don't you think they want the answer sooner, especially in a retainer model? You wanna be able to over deliver. So your ability to tap into
Speaker 2: whatever patterns of operations are happening and you already know the answer or know the risk
Speaker 2: allows you to build credibility,
Speaker 2: command higher prices, and also just really be able to be at a position where you constantly
Speaker 2: over deliver.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the generosity
Speaker 1: of sharing your unique experience and expertise because those perspectives really, that's what sets everybody
Speaker 1: apart individually and and makes you different from someone who has the exact same resume on paper
Speaker 1: is your blend, your unique perspective, which is what we talk about a lot in the accelerator.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Related to this,
Speaker 1: what's the relationship
Speaker 1: between discernment and curiosity?
Speaker 2: For me,
Speaker 2: the, the discernment is your
Speaker 2: natural ability, whatever it is, your natural tendency
Speaker 2: to tell a from b and kinda saying, I think we need to make this decision
Speaker 2: based on my experience,
Speaker 2: based on my,
Speaker 2: intuition, whatever that is, but all of it, one one way or another is a form of experience because you've
Speaker 2: seen similar problems in the past, and they like your decision making process.
Speaker 2: But one of the biggest value you can give is understanding why people are doing things. I just had this with a client last week. We get on a call. It was me, the CEO, and this is the client I've been with for a while,
Speaker 2: CEO and one of the other chiefs.
Speaker 2: And it's the other chief started the meeting kinda saying, here's what we need. We need to automate these presentations because I wanna do a quarterly review.
Speaker 2: And, right now, we're looking at, like, five different databases, and it takes so much manual time, and,
Speaker 2: it's really important. It's gonna save us a lot of time. And he was and then the CEO was starting to engage,
Speaker 2: and he was saying, well, I think we should do something else. I don't,
Speaker 2: I think maybe if we do it that way, it's gonna be better. Maybe this person can do it and so on. And after, like, them speaking for, like, twenty two minutes, I just thought, hey, guys. Can I interject for a bit?
Speaker 2: And I just simply asked him, why do you wanna do this?
Speaker 2: Why do you wanna do this? They were so engulfed
Speaker 2: in the how and trying to engineer
Speaker 2: how exactly is it gonna get done? What are the nuances without even questioning why is it important? I told him, listen. If you started a meeting and you told me that this I have an idea. It's gonna make us $5,000,000 a year.
Speaker 2: And, first of all, you would already got my attention.
Speaker 2: Right? Put aside my curiosity, you have my attention. I wanna make a lot of money for the company.
Speaker 2: If you started the idea that way, I will be all ears, but you didn't. You started just saying, what do we need to do and how are we gonna do it without why
Speaker 2: should we do it to begin with? So being very focused on impact
Speaker 2: and being able to constantly be curious
Speaker 2: and not just say yes.
Speaker 2: Right? I I don't automatically say yes. I automatically
Speaker 2: ask why. I always automatically ask why. Because after they tell me the why,
Speaker 2: part of the value I'm trying to bring as an executive in the company, outside of me being a CTO is how can we get this impact
Speaker 2: the fastest and cheapest possible?
Speaker 2: And sure enough, by the way, after I showed it, I'm like, this is, you know, an $80,000
Speaker 2: a year salary. Get this person and you'll get it. It's gonna be pristine. Of course, they're not gonna be as fast as automation, but I don't if we're just looking one sprint in this, we're already spending a $150,000.
Speaker 2: Like, it makes no sense. Like, it doesn't make financial sense, and you can get the capability right now
Speaker 2: without waiting for anything. And when you really need to scale, come back to the technology team, we can scale it and so on. So having now he could've
Speaker 2: I could've let him continue with the meeting, and I could've added my discernment on the how.
Speaker 2: I kinda say no. No. No. I think we should use these databases, and we can use this automation, and we can use this engineer, and maybe we can use a product off the shelf and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2: But because I first asked why, it did something a lot more important, which is clarified for everybody
Speaker 2: the impact from the engagement. And then I added my more important discernment, which is should it exist or not?
Speaker 2: Not just how we should execute on it, but should we execute on it because of that curiosity. And next was, of course, how should we execute on it?
Speaker 1: What I love is in a previous episode, you talked about how the dynamic that you have with your clients at the executive level.
Speaker 1: One of your favorite things to do is
Speaker 2: show them how to solve a problem by not doing something or get a result by not doing something. How can we do this without us do not doing anything? It's a complete prompt. How can we do this without us not doing anything, without you not doing anything, without me not doing anything?
Speaker 2: Very important.
Speaker 1: What a gift and all unlocked by
Speaker 1: why.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 1: Now okay. We've acknowledged
Speaker 1: that bias is
Speaker 1: and does have value, especially when you're being paid to be an adviser.
Speaker 1: How how do you communicate your biases
Speaker 1: in a way that builds trust
Speaker 1: rather than maybe undermining it?
Speaker 2: So first of all, I think general
Speaker 2: kind of rules of engagement in conversation.
Speaker 2: Right? Using using these frames,
Speaker 2: I feel,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 2: Right? Subjectivity is very important. If you're coming in now you might know the answer and you like, a 100% sure of the answer. But if you're coming in very aggressive
Speaker 2: with your prescription,
Speaker 2: you're probably gonna create some resistance.
Speaker 2: Some defenses are gonna go up. Could be because of just the energy of the communication, just literally the tone and kinda how that meeting,
Speaker 2: is being developed,
Speaker 2: or just how people respond to statements
Speaker 2: or, like, factual statements.
Speaker 2: Right? So I'm very much when I come up with ideas and prescription, even though I know they're the right one, the first way I present them is I think we should do this. I feel we should do that. And then I also add why.
Speaker 2: As the more I can frame it as something subjective,
Speaker 2: the less I'm
Speaker 2: gonna be in a position where I'm suddenly defending it.
Speaker 2: Right? If I come in with some with, an objective statement, immediately, this is how we should do it x y z,
Speaker 2: I might lose trust with someone.
Speaker 2: Maybe not with the CEO. Maybe the CEO was fine. Maybe the CEO even likes it. But you're not working in a vacuum.
Speaker 2: You have your team. You have the other executives you're collaborating with. And trust is the thing you need to build all the time. It's also a thing you lose so quick.
Speaker 2: So quick.
Speaker 2: So if you have bat tonality,
Speaker 2: if you're making things super objective without explaining anything, if you're not considering
Speaker 2: the other forces or energies in the company of kinda saying, well, I know that, you know, Jenny wants to do that and Mike wants to do that. If you're not acknowledging
Speaker 2: the other people in the group, you will lose trust, you will erode trust.
Speaker 2: The other thing is also remind people that you did what you said you'd gonna do.
Speaker 2: Super important. And this is something that actually took me a while to learn because I'm very execution oriented.
Speaker 2: I'm very like, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. And I do it. That's the best way I prefer. I prefer to just work. Let me work. Let me deliver. Don't worry about it. But the reality is you need to continually build trust with your team, with your coworkers, with your clients, whatever it is. So when you say you're gonna do something, you need to remind them that you actually did it. Also, if you failed, you need to tell them,
Speaker 2: I failed, and don't defend yourself. If you're defending yourself, you're gonna undermine trust because people
Speaker 2: are not gonna believe in you.
Speaker 2: It's very simple. So being
Speaker 2: frame it as subjective first and then building up the reasoning,
Speaker 2: acknowledging
Speaker 2: people, acknowledging the other
Speaker 2: constraints, the risks, the the ideas, the opinions,
Speaker 2: whatever that is, very important. And also reminding them that you did something. You know, we use one of the mental models
Speaker 2: we say in the program is
Speaker 2: say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean.
Speaker 2: It's like the simple mental model
Speaker 2: of, like, be honest, be truthful, be kind.
Speaker 2: Because if you're not gonna be one of those things,
Speaker 2: trust is gonna erode, and eventually, you'll find yourself
Speaker 2: out of a contract.
Speaker 1: And it's so true,
Speaker 1: because if someone
Speaker 1: feels judged
Speaker 1: because of how this is communicated
Speaker 1: in any way, you lose the ability to influence them. And, you know, when it comes to these long term relationships,
Speaker 1: the ability to
Speaker 1: engage meaningfully.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you do need to exert some influence and,
Speaker 1: and enroll other folks on your vision
Speaker 1: because their engagement in your vision is essential to getting it across the line.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like also before big meetings, this is something I learned from
Speaker 2: founding companies and having boards and investors,
Speaker 2: is if a big thing is gonna come up,
Speaker 2: isolate the variables. Have individual meetings
Speaker 2: with the big influencers,
Speaker 2: certainly if there are decision makers, but any kind of influencers.
Speaker 2: Because part of influence is just energies. Like, they're, like,
Speaker 2: physical appearance
Speaker 2: as you share
Speaker 2: whatever you're sharing. Right? It's not even the actual
Speaker 2: input that they have to give or or rather that is the input. Right? It's it's how they feel about you.
Speaker 2: So doing it one on one,
Speaker 2: before any big meetings, big presentations, and so on allow you to get all of the potential rejections and all the potential friction,
Speaker 2: get bind with them. So by the time you're presenting in the big meeting, all of them are feel like they're already read in. Like, they feel like they're a part of it, and you're doing it together as opposed to now you're presenting to all of them, and each one of them has a personal experience
Speaker 2: that you actually don't know what's going on through their mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Brilliant.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gotta socialize the ideas.
Speaker 1: How how does humility
Speaker 1: keep bias
Speaker 1: from going into arrogance?
Speaker 2: You wanna be able to say
Speaker 2: back to what I was saying earlier,
Speaker 2: this is how I feel. This is what I think. Right? So if you're saying this is my read and here's how I'm testing it.
Speaker 2: Right? You're kinda saying,
Speaker 2: I'm
Speaker 2: not certain, but this is what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: And being able to reflect the fact that your actions are a function of your opinion
Speaker 2: explicitly.
Speaker 2: Like, this is my opinion, ergo, these are the actions
Speaker 2: that I'm taking. So being able to say not these are the best actions,
Speaker 2: but rather the way I understand the situation,
Speaker 2: the way I integrate
Speaker 2: all of the parts of this, this is the action,
Speaker 2: I think we should take. And it's really about that framing, and it's a framing that auto says, well, yeah, if you
Speaker 2: knew other facts
Speaker 2: or if you had other things to consider, you might take different action as opposed to just saying, yeah. I'm taking this action.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't need to explain myself. Right? If you do that, you're not humble. You don't come off as humble. Maybe you're open, but you're not communicating as such. And, again, you're
Speaker 2: building emotional friction with your peers, with your colleagues, with your partners, with your employees,
Speaker 2: which will eventually just explode. So being able to not just,
Speaker 2: be humble, which is kinda saying, maybe you don't know the best answer, but this is the best answer you have right now.
Speaker 2: Actually being there, but also explicitly communicating it. So they know that they're you're inviting them to add information
Speaker 2: because maybe you will change your opinion or you'll change your actions.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a bridge to further conversation
Speaker 1: versus a wall that creates separation and division.
Speaker 1: Beautiful.
Speaker 1: So if someone wants to improve their judgment
Speaker 1: starting today,
Speaker 1: what's the first step?
Speaker 2: I would say
Speaker 2: pick any assumption one assumption you regularly make when entering a new engagement and ask
Speaker 2: two questions this week that test that assumption instead of supporting it. I don't assume. It's like when I gave you that example earlier,
Speaker 2: he came in and said, yep. We should do this. We should automate. We should, you know, spend all these resources instead of me asking
Speaker 2: why.
Speaker 2: So you can do that for interactions you have with your
Speaker 2: colleagues, with your clients,
Speaker 2: but ideally with yourself. Just noticing when you're making assumptions
Speaker 2: that because of them, you're acting in a certain way. One of the challenges that we help people go through the accelerator
Speaker 2: is them assuming that they can do marketing or can't do sales or they can't write content. Right? And then part of what we help them see and what they see also in the community is that they can't.
Speaker 2: They're not special.
Speaker 2: This is very simple. Anybody can learn this. But the assumption that they're not a marketer means that they can't write content.
Speaker 2: And then the that's the assumption we need to get rid of. You don't need to be a marketer
Speaker 2: to write content, or in fact, you can write content and then become a marketer. You're just not gonna become a twenty year experience marketing executive. So being able to add specificity,
Speaker 2: pick apart your assumptions that you're making or that your clients are making, and then ask why and revisit it. Just pretend, well, what if this wasn't true?
Speaker 2: What would I do differently?
Speaker 1: Beautiful.
Speaker 1: If this episode helped you rethink judgment, bias, and curiosity,
Speaker 1: share it with a leader who relies on their discernment.
Speaker 1: Sharp minds sharpen each other. See you next time, Lior. See you next time.